Talk:Meter Reads Drill Film
CREATE A LOG IN TO "START A NEW DISCUSSION" OR "REPLY". (options viewable only with log in)
- [View source↑]
|Thread title||Replies||Last modified|
|Critique from Ralph Hilton||6||23:30, May 4, 2013|
|LRH quote||3||11:19, May 4, 2013|
|Critique - Meter Drills and reads||4||06:51, May 4, 2013|
|THREADS DATED IN APRIL 2013||0||22:40, May 2, 2013|
|Meter Reads Film Critique No. 2||8||00:48, April 18, 2013|
|Critique from Dan Koon||1||19:32, April 16, 2013|
|Critique from Gayle Evans via Facebook PM||0||01:50, April 16, 2013|
|Ignazio Tidu||1||14:55, April 14, 2013|
|E Meter Drills Film||1||13:44, April 14, 2013|
|Critique From Ian Waxler||1||13:43, April 14, 2013|
|From Glenn to Johnathon re: Meter instructional video||0||00:27, April 13, 2013|
Hi Jonathan, I think the film has quite a way to go to reach release quality. The long fall is a prior read. The persistent F/N is very jerky. The "F/N that springs" doesn't look at all like an F/N. The theta bop is too slow. The R/S looks as if it was made by touching the cans together. The stage four doesn't look anything like the ones I have seen. The rocket read didn't rocket.
I would say that the first thing to do is throw out the CofS meter as it shows a lot of artifacts. Then reads need to be collected from recordings of a lot of real sessions. I'd be quite willing to design and prototype a meter with a digital record and playback. That way the session reads could be played back on a meter setup with optimum lighting for a video recording.
The nice thing about modern video editing is that one can go back under the hood and make adjustments. Version 1.2 has been posted as of May 4th, 2013 here on Scientolipedia.
The updates list can be found just under the video and copyright line.
Hi Jonathan - the lighting is rather poor on this quick attempt but this is what I would consider a persistent F/N : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyNQOWDoPqg&feature=youtu.be
I can't mock up a theta bop at the moment so this one is generated by the microcontroller box that I use for meter testing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwdTYoJmqP0&feature=youtu.be It goes up and down 6 times a second.
The springy F/N is something I didn't see until after I left the CofS. What I have observed is that it is a faster F/N. The swings at the end are artifacts produced by CofS meters that don't appear at all on meters that accurately show what is occuring in the PC. They seem to occur only on people who have run a lot of NOTs. Glenn's statements seem very accurate to me regarding the rocket read and tick. The pop to F/N is only visible on a high quality meter so won't show up on the CofS junk meters. When LRH made the statement about the pop there were some very fast meters around made by a company called Design Animations that showed it but after the Sea Org took over meter production around 1974 the meters became sluggish. The Mk 7 was far better than the Mk 6 which I consider useless. The Quantum appears to me to make sluggish F/Ns. I agree exactly with Anita about the stage 4 but would add that the speed is a fair bit slower on those that I have seen - the whole phenomena takes a bit less than twice as long as yours - I would also make it twice as big. It really has a death march feeling. Imagine that you are with a 1000 other slaves slowly dragging stones up the slopes toward the temple for the tone level of it.
As far as the overall presentation goes it is obvious that you are a professional in that regard. My own interest is in the technical aspects so I tend to regard the glitter as secondary. I would suggest making the glitter briefer and leaving out the defocussing effects.
Another suggestion is that you ask people's permission before putting their names up as consultants. I think we are still looking at an alpha/beta version and that people might not want their names on it as a final presentation. The CofS will use anything to attack Independepents. I put a picture of our dog with a Sea Org Officers cap on him and labelled it the Ethics Officer. they put that in their DA pack and said "Look - this guy has so liitle sense of ethics that he appoints his dog as the MAA." I guess they didn't know that the people at Int have to salute DM's dog now :-)
You could say - this film has been approved by the following: ... We wish to thank for their technical contributions: ...
We need an LRH quote re the importance of metering skills for the front of the page.(or a couple of them) Please cite the reference as well so we can include that.
I'll get on that asap! I know of some good ones!
CRAFTSMANSHIP: FUNDAMENTALS A lecture given on 3 May 1962 "When you sit down across from an auditor who does his E-Metering so well that he never worries about an E-Meter; he does his TRs so well that he never worries about his TRs; he does his Model Session so well that he never worries about his Model Session; he knows what he's supposed to do with the processes he's given, whether they're a Routine 3 or a Prepcheck or anything else, you see, and he does just these things, and honest, the pc, as a pc, he'll just say, "Gosh! you know? Gosh! Huh! It's so easy! I am so comfortable sitting here being audited." How come? What makes this? How did that combination of events take place? Is it because the auditor was born as the seventh son of a seventh son? Is it because he gave a present once to the Witch of Endor? Is it some fantastic prescience of some kind? Is it because his thetan can read your thetan? Well, it doesn't happen to be a single one of these things. It would be because the auditor knew the little points of auditing absolutely perfectly, did them as a whole, with perfection, so that he was under no tension by reason of auditing, because he knew all the parts, and could then apply fundamentals to what he was doing."
Hi Jonathan; First of all, I want to validate you very much for all of the work that you have done so far putting the Tech together. Thank you very much! I highly appreciate all of the effort for the preservation for future generations.
I have just received the booklet but not the video. I cannot comment on that. But I glanced through the book on the E-Meter drills and the first thing that surprised me was that you ask for a correction from Dan Koon. Let's not forget that he is the main author of the Golden Age of Tech which brought about the arbitraries on the E-Meter Tech. First of all, LRH never intended for a student auditor to do a "professional" meter course, I remember well that in the 70's we did the meter drills enough to understand them and then we went to audit, came back did more drills, audited some more and so on and that is how we became professional: By actually auditing.
I have an observation on the statement on the section 'Known Exceptions' point # 2 A Black South African withholds, read not on the needle alone..." I have a consideration that thetans are thetans no matter what nationality, true different countries dramatize the dynamics differently but at the end of the day, aren't we all equal? Was LRH racist or was that a true observation on this? Anybody reading that section that was written in the 60's has to bear in mind that with the Apartheid and the way life was back then. It is possible that a black person at the time was so suppressed that they went into a reverse vector when questioned and the W/H pulled in consequential masses. That is the only explanation I can give to that. If they told their W/Hs they were hung or punished severely and they violently withheld.
I will consult this with a friend of mine that was in Scn when the first meter drills came out if you don't mind and do research why black SA read differently. That is my 2 Cents so far.
The book is from the church as reference for those less than familiar with some of the more recent reads such as "an F/N that springs and does not flow", asan example and only for that purpose.
The video is my creation, feel free to critique it.
Aida, as I remember it, LRH found a tribe of Black Africans that responded differently on the e-meter, not all Black Africans. He was speculating that the genetic system might be different...now that is how I remember the talk of that time. Pat
My understanding is, while a thetan by any other name is still a thetan (smile), the subject of withholds and overts plays against moral codes and social mores and norms and you're auditing the case, or handling the pc's case and "now-I'm-supposed-tos", etc., and so you may get different reactions. But even then, TA can rise on a number of factors when running sessions and then blow down once the charge is gotten off. I often see this in NED as well as FPRD. Anyway, I would put my money on this being an observation by LRH. And Pat, thanks for the added data. Always helps to complete the picture.
Hi Aida, My own experience is that people with black skin tend to have a TA that goes high more easily. I don't think it has anything to do with the thetan. The meter measures skin resistance and black skin is different from white skin in its electrical responses.
Threads and comments dated in April 2013 were based on testing and critiquing earlier versions of this film, not the current version.
Please place your critiques here in this discussion thread, no emails please, just post them here.
Thanks for all the hard work to put this together Jonathan.
This film will have a huge impact on training in the Field. VWD
Thank you David, I really appreciate it, very, very, much!
OK, so here is my input.
There were so many good things. It is so professional and almost majestic! I love that. I love the music. I love the way the writing or printing of the words showing the credits at the beginning. I don't know the terminology so I don't know how to express it, but it's really really good.
I thought the FNs were VERY good. FNs can look so different and still be FNs.
I assume you are going to show instant reads by having someone say "apples?" or something like that to show when the read occurs during assessment.
I thought it might be cool to have someone "breathe" when you show the metab test, to show that it is a latent read. The read occurs during the exhale not the inhale, and could be latent even from that, so it would be nice to show that. Maybe you already planned that.
The "fall" is pretty long, almost a long fall. I don't think it is over 2 inches but it's close. AND you don't show a long fall which is a very common read. I think it would be good if you shorten the fall a little and then include the long fall after the fall and before the LFBD.
The tick and the stop should be included in your "instant reads" because they are only relevant if they are instant.
The clean needle starts out looking like a null needle. Toward the end it becomes a smooth rise which better fits the definition of clean.
Just a thought--when you show the null needle you could have someone saying "apples?" and maybe a couple more items to show that the needle is not reacting to what the auditor is saying.
The stage 4 doesn't "stick" after it goes up. It should stick before it falls. Perhaps this is impossible to duplicate when you are trying to perform this on a meter. I notice it has a little bounce in it (which you probably can't do anything about). The problem is it doesn't really look the way a stage 4 needle actually looks. A real stage 4 needle actually hesitates a little during the "stick" part. It goes up, sticks, and THEN falls..
I don't understand the need to show speeded and slowed falls and rises. I have never seen them to actually be relevant to auditing. I have never particularly noticed or noted one down during a session. In my experience, when you are auditing you aren't noticing if these thing speed up or slow down. Maybe it's just me. I'm only a class 4.
I hate to sound so picky but one more thing. The rocket read (which I have never particularly noticed in a session either) isn't very well demonstrated in the film. It doesn't really slow down like an arrow shooting into water and then it has that bounce at the end.
I think it is hard to show most reads without getting that bounce at the end because you are trying to simulate a read and it's not a real read. I don't know how you would fix it….. jus sayin…….
This is a very courageous, ambitious, and adventuresome task you have taken on, Jonathan… I am in total admiration, so please don't let my critiques discourage you….
I probably saw the e-meter reads drill film in the org, maybe more times than any other human being on the planet! hahahahaha It seems that way to ME.
I'm sure they used a similator to conjure up those perfect reads.
Thanks again, Jonathan, for taking on this task.
Feel free to call me if you want to clarify any of this.
Hi Jonathan, great job overall. You have made several improvements. Couple points: at 08:01 the word "existence" is misspelled.
At 08:01 - Instant F/N: Is currently shown starting with a Fall. Per the refs, it is "most usually" seen as an LF/FN or the LFBD/F/N - that's how I would prefer to show it for training.
09:53: Theta Bop - Still not fast enough - I know this is hard to simulate mechanically - I just tried it myself and got a bit closer by; 1) set Sens Booster to Low 2) Sens Knob at 1 3) using a remote TA, crank the TA rapidly back and forth in a tight pattern, this way you can more closely approximate it. The main prob is differentiating it from a dirty needle. Perhaps, as someone suggested, if it can't be accurately simulated here, it might be best to omit it altogether.
One other minor note: The drill instructions at the beginning - at least the 2nd page of them, should go at the end, just before the drills - but you are probably planning that, anyway.
Thank you Randy for pointing out the typo on existence, typing is my weak point.
I'll be working on the reads quickly after and have another video to everyone in a day or so.
Advanced Organization of the Great Plains
I really liked the graphics, you are doing a great job here. I can really see how this would be huge project to take on.
I thought that the Fns were not smoothly flowing and didn't always move from right to left at the same speed, and seemed to have little hitches or hangups in them, I think a realistic FN is more smoothly flowing.
I thought the tick looked more like a small fall, not 1/8" but 1/4"
The sound at the end of each read I would think should be less loud compared to the background music, it is a little jarring. I thought the other critiques I read here, Randy and Pat's were useful.
Your work is much appreciated!
Hey Jonathan, Fantastic work. Most of the reads were great. Here are some points for you:
Speeded Fall - cannot be seen really - too fast.
Rocket Read - unclear what it is on the video, it seems like several reads appear.
F/N #4- I cannot see a rythmic sweet of the dial here. I do not see any F/ N.
Change of Meter Characteristics - I cannot see any change of characteristics... A good way of showing it could be to show a TA at 4.0, sensitivity at 32 and needle sticky, then show a TA at 2.5, sensitivity at 5 and an F/N. for students, these things should be made VERY CLEAR as that's their first stable datum in studying about an E-Meter. This film is not really for trained auditors.
Null needle - a tick appears there as well...
- The Stage Four needle should Rise, stick, fall, rise, stick, fall... It was nearly perfect yet I would make it bigger on the meter dial and clearer as much as possible.
That's it. Thanks so much for doing this, this film is a great contribution to mankind as well as my own Org.
Thank you for the valuable input. I wanted to touch on a couple things. Firstly, I sincerely hope the film is useful in the academy there in Israel and elsewhere. It is true that this film is a similar work to the EM-9A film, if I'm not mistaken on the number assignation. The purpose is to help train new auditors, and if it can be helpful in Qual cycles after an auditor is trained that would be superlative also! That being said, I am more than happy to make a chapter on reads in the very near future for trained auditors who either need reference, cramming, what have you. Auditors and C/S's just need to let me know what is needed and wanted in their academy/ Qualifications Division/Internship. I will produce it and make a chapter for the film for things such as change of meter characteristic, attest cycles and so on per the PL or HCOB.
The change of characteristic in the film currently is reflecting a change in needle characteristic, not meter characteristic. I agree with your input on the "over time" view on the change of meter characteristic and will follow through on that as part of the new chapter for "seasoned" auditors. Most likely I will do some sort of a time lapse of many sessions to convey it properly and then get a critique or two on it and the whole chapter. I would like to get the cycle ended on this first though as it is now over 500 hours of my time and would like to see it to some state of fruition first. Hopefully in the next month or so I can put it together, just let me know here on the discussion guys what you would like to see in that chapter for the seasoned auditors.
I will be placing an index in the front of the film with Names of chapters, length of the chapter, and the video time start point of each chapter for ease of use. Once everything is codified, rendered, and every clip is in the right place(s). That should save time in the Academy and for qual instructs and crams especially.
Thank you and much ARC,
Advanced Organization of the Great Plains
Last edit: 20:12, April 14, 2013
Sorry I am replying in an e-mail but I could not for the life of me figure out how to simply add my critique. That site is difficult to navigate for the uninitiated such as myself.
To my knowledge you included all the reads in the CoS film except the LF, which I noted you were going to correct.
I have several comments on reads that I did not notice the first time I watched the film or else some of these reads were changed this time around:
a) the persistent F/N, instant F/N and FTA look awfully jerky. They appear to have body motion in them. I did not notice this earlier but it was distracting this time around.
b) the body motion looks too erratic. I did not notice this first time around, unless you changed the read.
c) the Stage 4 does not match the description in EME or rises, sticks, falls, always the same distance. I personally have never seen one and maybe knew one person who saw one once, so it is not important, I don't think, for practical purposes. Maybe Trey has seen one. Anyhow, if there is a way to mechanically create this, I think you could get a more accurate demonstration.
That is it. Your presentation, graphics, sfx and all look awfully damn good. As good as the church film. So, congratulations. I like the additional metab reads and F/Ns. They are useful.
Really well done!
I looked at the timeline in Final Cut Pro X, the Long fall was in the timeline but omitted in the render. I looked into it, to find it is a bug in the software that has yet to be addressed. I will make sure on the next pass they are all there or re-render till' they are.
I like no LOVE the create, period. Now here is my critique yes?
1. FN Number 1 is a springy FN that eventually stops being springy 2. Instant FN looks stiff - not sweeping, lacks rhthym 3. JUST A NOTE: I know you said something about that being added in the next round or so but need to be consistent in my critiquing eh?! The following reads can't be properly critiqued without volume for me. Persistent FN Instant FN Null needle Stuck needle Stop 4. Change of Characteristic doesn't show it 5. Dirty Needle - suggestion, like you show with the FNs if you could show several DNs I think it would help ragged, jerky, ticking not sweeping and tends to be persistent...these little fellas need to be fully understood. I've cracked cases by following up on these during assessments to find bpc...often times a newer pc won't originate WHAT they want to say and so withhold it - first sign of that is that ticky needle. An auditor is to never go past this in an assessment and so I think that showing a few more of these little fellas could really be useful to training auditors. 6. The stage four: in the film it's bouncing on each end of the read when it doesn't in reality have any of that bounce in it at all.
I'm going to preface this next with it's just opinion based on my reaction and has nothing at all to do with technical:
didn't love the music and still don't like that sound used to fade out/in with the dials. This one sounds electrifying - zzzzzzzzt kind of sound.
The whole subject of auditing, making auditors, it's all about the spirit of man. That's a very uptone, sparkly, glittery, chimes and bells and upbeat uplifting matter. So it would be more paralleling the beauty of it with this reflected in it's lightness and beautiness that it creates and which it inspires.
You might consider NO music when the reads are being shown like EM 9 and EM9A.
There you be Mr. Burke. Take that and do what you will my friend.
Best to you and your co-creator thank you thank you thank you!
Thanks a lot for the new video. This is so much better than previous one. I can’t validate the stage 4 read as the one I know from tech films is way different than the one shown here. The F/Ns are fine, the theta bop is too slow, the D/N is not very ragged as it normally looks.
I'm attaching my comments below Ignazio's as he sums it up pretty well in my opinion. This is greatly improved from the first one and I see much change from my original comments made. I have no problem with the FNs as they aren't always "picture perfect" in session; I agree with Pat and Ignazio on the theta bop (can you speed up the frame rate and loop it perhaps?); the tick should be more of a quick "jerk" or "tick" as Glenn and Trey point out; and as Ignazio states, the D/N needs to be more "erratic, ragged, jerky". Finally, if you could tone down that last sound that heralds the change in dial faces, I think, as Trey says, it would be less jarring. Just a volume thing. Other than that, you've created something that truly shows your "labour of love". Well done.
Hi, Johan. Much improved. As I mentioned before I don't think you can get a theta bop that looks like a theta bop without catching one live. You have the evenness of the needle swing but the rapid dance at each end is missing. The stage 4 doesn't pass, it's too jiggly at the top, it should be just rise, stick, fall, rise, stick, fall in a steady rhythum. It is a very smooth action. I can't tell about the null needle without sound of course; what I saw didn't look null. Easier to demonstrate with a clean needle that doesn't change when you speak. One of the f/ns, a persistent f/n had sticks in it. Your dirty needle doesn't show a pattern, and the tick doesn't tick, it just sticks. One more thing, I don't understand why the "spring" f/n. That is an additive, there isn't such a thing as a "spring" f/n, so I wish you would take that out. You are just showing a needle pattern.
Your rises, both the slow and speeded looked great! Your clean needle was fine. R/S, change of needle pattern quite recognizable.
It is very important that if this is used as a training tape in any way that it be exact on all fronts...otherwise the student auditor could get a mis-conception. Better to leave out some of the ones like theta bop if it can't be produced, rocket read too might be misleading. Both those items are outstanding enough when they occur that it will catch a new auditor's attention and he will recognize it from the description in the Emeter books when it shows up in session.
Hi, Johan. I sent my input to Scientolipedia.org
Turns out there is a mention of a spring needle. I stand corrected, but it isn't listed as a needle read. I let Mark Elliott who had six months of meter drilling and Joe both look at #2. They said pretty much what I did except I was corrected on no such thing as spring.
I have never seen a film, films came after my training. Apparently in the COS they have two, one to show meter reads and one to use as a qualification --no labels. They used real reads though from pcs.
Overall.. it's a wonderfully, professional quality production.. Obviously, you are very skilled at what you did here..
Of course you have solicited "critiques"... so no reason not to respond if I have no suggestions for any aspects that might be IMPROVED?
Some of the reads appear to be "produced" reads.. ie artificially imitated by someone..... especially some of the F/Ns?? I wonder why you failed to inclue LF in between SF and LFBD? ....or was this an oversigt for this version perhaps...
Now I am not suggesting that everyone is going to be on board with every read you get here... only that if you keep getting on video more and more metering.. you will be able to isolate BETTER examples of any that are not exactly "perfect"?
ALl in all.. the great thing about your production is you have the ability to 'refine' it as improvements can be made.. Let me know if anything I might be able to do to help you in any ways... ok?
thanks.. and best of luck on it... Ian Waxler, Class VIII C/S
Ian, Thanks for your kind words, coming from you it means a lot! I had put in the LF but it's not there, so I will fix that (again). It was an oversight on my part, not a willfull omission.
The F/N's actually are from my Solo NOTS sessions and aren't manufactured but do seem to get the most criticism, lol. Maybe it's the rendering of the video that makes them wonky? I will continue to make them or new ones look more representative of what you guys expect. It's not been an easy task. I didn't expect it to be though. It takes a ton of confront to do this I've come to realize, more than even I thought.
I will be sending out continual revisions until I can get a balance of approval, so thanks for your patience.
Advanced Organization of the Great Plains
Overall excellent work on something difficult to do.
Critique: Production quality very good. Music too somber after a while and needs some variance. Can you be sued by Scn for their terms on a broadcast? Are you doing the reads by hand or from real reads? It looks like by hand as there are jiggles at the end of the falls which are misleading. The slow rise had jerks in it, needs to be redone. The rocket read is too slow. The first two FNs are too mechanical and not "floaty" enough. The 3rd FN is OK. The 4th FN is not recognizable to me as an "FN." The "springs" FN is not recognizable to me. If you mean "pop to FN" then you don't have it yet. The Instant FN is not smooth enough. The tick is too smooth, a tick is a "jerk" of the needle.
Again, good job. Glenn